Opinion about microverse.org


#1

I got an email from Ariel Camus,(prob. one of the guys behind this site):

Hi there,

I just saw on Github that you are following The Odin Project curriculum. Are you or someone you know interested in completing The Odin Project doing remote pair programming with another student?

I run an online and immersive program where we pair students from different parts of the world to learn together while completing The Odin Project, working on freelance projects, and contributing to open source. We don’t charge anything unless you make money as a developer after the program, and we have some spots available right now.

This is the URL to sign up in case that sounds interesting: https://microverse.typeform.com/to/aUbdqe
And here is the website with more information about the program: http://www.microverse.org/

Let me know if you have any questions.

Ariel Camus
Microverse Founder

Anyone knows smth more about this site.
Thanks.


#2

Hey @AgonIdrizi, I’m one of the maintainers for The Odin Project. We’ve been hearing more and more about these emails.

Ariel isn’t associated with us though. We believe he’s been finding TOP students to email by watching who submits student solutions to our repos on Github.


#3

I received the email too I was wondering what is was all about I ended up deleting the email.


#4

Yeah, just consider it spam tbh.


#5

I’m sorry that I just found this topic. I wish I could have answered earlier.

I’m the founder of Microverse and the person who sent that email. We love The Odin Project and since we use it as the main guide for the students of our full-time program, I had the feeling that people who were completing The Odin Project by themselves could be interested in our program that offers mentorship, pair programming, and career coaching on top of The Odin Project completely free until you get a job.

As @KevinMulhern mentioned, I was basically emailing the people who were sending solutions to the more advanced parts of the curriculum, and I actually found that most of the people that I reached out to were really receptive to the idea of joining our program. In fact, some of them did join.

I really apologize if my email was annoying to anyone. I stopped sending them a long time ago. I think that there are great synergies between the two communities and we will continue encouraging our students to contribute to TOP as much as possible.

Happy coding!

Ariel


#6

@arielcamus I would like to bring this to your attention:

Also this: https://github.com/TheOdinProject/curriculum/blob/master/license.md


#7

Thanks for pointing that out. I had a conversation with Erik a while ago and explained to him that we are not using The Odin Project to teach nor we are modifying it in any way or charging for it. We are just pointing students to go to The Odin Project as a way for them to stay focused on a single learning path. His answer was “That sounds within reasonable use so go for it.”, and that’s why we finally decided to go with TOP as our top recommendation for students to follow.


#8

It is “legit” in a sense but it’s really not.

I left the program a few weeks in after realizing that you’re essentially going to be paying them $15,000 for a coding partner. They give you nothing original to study from and their entire coursework is based on The Odin Project. It really is “to complete the HTML/CSS section, go read these materials on The Odin Project and complete their projects to move onto Ruby” which by the way is also on The Odin Project. You don’t essentially learn a lot because if you are familiar with how The Odin Project works, there are solutions available after each challenge.

They also don’t have anyone helping you along the way during your studies except for a team of code reviewers who critique your projects and tell you to make corrections. These code reviewers are just students who are farther ahead than you so they’re also using that opportunity to add to their resume and not instructors themselves.

Microverse also claims 100% employment rate, but I’m beginning to wonder if that is the case because they hire their students to become code reviewers? I am friends with a few Microverse grads who has not been able to find a job for several months now so I’m curious as to where that number comes from. But I do know that they also get paid maybe $7-11/hr depending on the project language they’re assigned to code review.

The entire Microverse structure is run by students and a list of links to The Odin Project to get you going and building projects. It does motivate you because you are working with a coding partner who you don’t want to let down but thats as great as it gets. Remember that your coding partner will be a student like you also so unless they are already knowledgeable in the topic they can’t really teach you either.


#9

Plus, you can just get a coding partner on these forums!


#10

Hi @DAndres, I’m sorry that you feel that way about Microverse. The team and I never intend to make you (or any other student or applicant) feel the way that you do.

As I mentioned in my previous comment, we love The Odin Project, but it only represents a small piece of what most people need to get to a life-changing job—the content. Microverse is focused on all the other missing pieces: providing accountability, support, soft skills, coaching, a global experience, and guidance at scale.

We do that around existing content in some cases (e.g. The Odin Project), and using our own content other times (e.g. Career Prep). We always use whatever content our curriculum team thinks will provide the best learning experience for our students. However, I always say that telling people that content is all they need is like saying that they shouldn’t go to a university because they can buy all the books and learn by themselves.

A great learning experience is much more than content. It’s about community, support, accountability, guidance, etc. You need all those things if you want to stay focused and motivated for 8-10 hours a day, 5 days a week, for months. Learning to code is not easy.

We do that by facilitating the best peer-to-peer learning environment in the world. As a student, you get assigned a mentor who is more advanced than you who will do weekly calls to support you, code reviewers who are carefully selected and trained to help you improve your code through professional code reviews, a coding partner that will make sure you show up every morning and stay focused for 8 hours a day, and a dedicated group of peers that hold you accountable and give you support every single day.

On top of that, our curriculum team has created a professional skills curriculum that guarantees that you are not just learning technical skills, but all the soft skills that are necessary to get a job, and a student success team that will make sure that nothing stops you during your learning process. In the last 90 days, the student success team has had over 2,000 conversations with students dealing with mental health, motivation issues, and financial issues among many other situations where our students were at risk.

We also provide a professional career services team (one coach for every 12-15 students) that will work with you not just to help you get your first job and negotiate job offers, but also to help you get your second and third jobs as you grow and advance in your career.

We are currently working to better tell the stories of our current employed graduates that have increased their income 2-10x after completing our program and who can attest to the value of our program. On that note, regarding placement stats, we tell students to expect the job search to take at least 12 weeks. However, it’s currently taking much less time than that for most of them.

By the way, we do not count students who are working as code reviewers in employment statistics.

In the meantime, for anyone reading this who needs more information to make an objective decision about whether to choose Microverse or something else, I encourage you to take a look at what people are saying about Microverse on Twitter, read reviews from past students, and get a taste of our program through our free pair programming sessions. And if you want to experience the full thing, I invite you to apply to the program and experience the first few weeks of our full-time, global, and collaborative learning experience—you can try our program for up to 4 weeks without owing us anything.

Of course, we realize Microverse still isn’t for everyone, and there are ways to get the content, accountability, support, and community needed to get to a life-changing career outside of Microverse. Here are a few resources off the top of my head.

For content: The Odin Project, freeCodeCamp, edX, Udemy
For community & support: #100DaysOfCode, CodeBuddies
For guidance: freeCodeCamp news, dev.to, reddit, Stack Overflow

You’re more than welcome to reach out if you have any questions or concerns. We’re always happy to help, even if the best answer in some cases is to recommend a different option other than Microverse.


#11

Just going to leave this here. :heart:️ And I encourage everyone to read this. This has all the information you need. Make sure you click the link, not just read the little excerpt discourse shows

Specifically this part:


#13

2-10x in income sounds nice but I think its important to add that the majority of your coding students are from third world countries taking jobs for a fraction of what a developer from say the US would make. what I found was that microverse is valuable to students from third world countries but perhaps not really for someone living in a country with better resources and options because there are other coding bootcamps that provides instructors and lectures versus yours. a lot of my team members were frustrated with the lack of support and confused by the structures of your code reviewers because as everyone currently in microverse would agree, the code reviewers were terrible.

microverse is also an english based bootcamp and while i was able to understand my partner’s heavy accent enough to complete our projects it was frustrating for both of us because i would have him repeat himself and talk slowly so that i could understand what he meant. sometimes i would also have him type up what he was trying to say because of his heavy accent.

i think its also important to mention that a student i became friends with ended up working on the projects on his own because his partner was hotspotting his internet from his mobile device and kept getting disconnected.

i think it would help if microverse built their own curriculum and had students building original projects to make their students stand out from the thousands building projects on TOP and instead of relying on your students to make microverse work, hire instructors that can assist or even teach your students as needed. peer-to-peer learning environment is great and all (it is probably the best because your bootcamp is the only bootcamp that relies on its students to teach each other), but its widely known in microverse that there is absolutely no support and guide except for links to resources freely available on the internet.

i’ll say it again, the mission is great and it is a great opportunity for those living in third world countries but it isn’t for those with better options.


#14

Thanks, @DAndres, for all the follow-up comments. You made me reflect a lot on how we’re doing. There is no better way to start the year :blush:

Here are my observations:

the majority of your coding students are from third world countries taking jobs for a fraction of what a developer from say the US would make.

Part of that is true, and it’s intentional. I started Microverse after spending two years traveling the world, meeting people from developing countries who were incredibly talented but disconnected from great professional opportunities. That disconnection drove me crazy. It’s crazy that most companies in developing countries are struggling to hire and retain people, while the ones that have figured out how to make remote work are hiring faster and keeping people around for much longer (e.g., GitLab).

It just doesn’t make sense that more than 95% of the world doesn’t have access to world-class education and professional opportunities. We have way too many problems to solve to be wasting so much precious talent.

It’s our mission to help people from every corner of the world (not just developed countries) to connect to world-class opportunities.

Now, I wouldn’t say that everyone outside the US is getting a job for a fraction of the cost. I’ll give you some examples:

  • A Microverse graduate based in the US should be making $60-80k+ per year by the time they graduate if they go through our career prep program and take advantage of the guidance of our career coaches to negotiate their salary.

  • A Microverse graduate from East Africa with one year of professional experience recently started working remotely for a US company making $60k a year. Most of our graduate students with no previous professional experience, even if they start with a lower salary, should expect to be making $50-60k in 2-3 years.

The most significant salary gap is in entry-level positions, but once you have 1-2 years of experience, the difference becomes smaller and smaller. Companies are not hiring remotely because it’s cheaper (it’s one of the benefits though), but because there are not enough people to hire in the US.

what I found was that microverse is valuable to students from third world countries but perhaps not really for someone living in a country with better resources and options because there are other coding bootcamps that provides instructors and lectures versus yours.

I understand if you need instructors and lectures for your experience to be a good one. In that case, Microverse is probably not the right fit for you, and this is why people have four weeks to leave the program without owing us anything.

I don’t think that depends on whether you come from a developed or developing country, though. Around 30% of our students come from developed countries, and their satisfaction score (NPS = Net Promoter Score) is as high as that of students in developing countries.

Once you go to the job market as a software developer, you will have to learn new things every single day – from using new libraries and understanding their documentation to learning new frameworks and programming languages. I always say: if you’re programming with the same stack in 5 years, you’re probably doing something wrong.

So here is a reflection we always make: you won’t have teachers and lectures at your job, but your employer will expect you to learn new things all the time. How will you be prepared for that environment if you have always depended on teachers and lectures to learn?

We have designed the entire environment to help you learn that way, and let me be honest, it’s tough and intense, and it takes a lot of intentional work. However, if you don’t start today, you will pay the price once you get to the job.

People in developing countries indeed have more options, and everyone should consider all their options when evaluating a decision as important as this one. Our value proposition is simple: we want to prepare you for a life of learning, to help you become a great team player, and to kickstart your international career (through remote work, or by joining companies with global or international teams like Microsoft or Google).

In the end, though, the only thing that matters is if people are happy with their experience. We have a dropout rate in the range of 10-15% (80-85% of the people who start the program graduate). We have been gradually increasing the school-wide NPS (we measure it every single Friday) from 60 to 70 over the past few months, and that includes everyone from developed countries as well.

microverse is also an english based bootcamp and while i was able to understand my partner’s heavy accent enough to complete our projects it was frustrating for both of us because i would have him repeat himself and talk slowly so that i could understand what he meant. sometimes i would also have him type up what he was trying to say because of his heavy accent.

It is that way by design. We have every applicant go through several collaborative sessions with multiple other applicants before joining, and we make sure people have an English level that is high enough to work effectively in a remote environment. That doesn’t mean it will be easy. Even if you go to work for a company like Google in the Bay Area, you should be prepared for people with strong accents.

I’ll quote the words of our lead investor in the Bay Area (they are also investors in Airbnb, Snapchat, Stripe, etc.):

“I don’t mind if you weren’t born in the U.S. or if your accent sounds funny – mine does for sure. I also don’t care whether you went to Stanford or you’re a domain expert yet. I believe that talent is universal, even if the opportunity is not.”

I always tell our students that the kind of growth we want them to go through they will find it precisely in those challenging moments when they’re working with their coding partners.

i think its also important to mention that a student i became friends with ended up working on the projects on his own because his partner was hotspotting his internet from his mobile device and kept getting disconnected.

Collaborative learning is fantastic, but it’s incredibly hard to do it well (as a school, not just as a student). When your learning/coding partner doesn’t have the elements to be fully committed, it makes it for a bad experience.

Even though cases like that one represent a minority, we have been working incredibly hard to anticipate them and address them before they create a sub-optimal experience for someone else.

A few months ago, we started measuring the quality of the Internet connection of every applicant (each test lasts for around one hour) and for every student (we test their connection 8 hours/day, every day). We started using that information to be more restrictive on who gets into the program and to be more proactive as soon as we detect someone in the program which is struggling with their connection. As a result, we decrease expulsions and drop-outs during the first week from 5% to 0.2%.

If the problem arises later on in the program, and if the student is doing well, we often offer financial stipends so those students can pay for a stable Internet connection. If a stable connection is not available, we, unfortunately, ask those students to leave the program and come back once a solution becomes available where they live.

That, by the way, has nothing to do with whether the person is hot-spotting a 4G connection or not. We have found that 4G connections are often much more reliable than broadband connections accessed through Wifi.

i think it would help if microverse built their own curriculum and had students building original projects to make their students stand out from the thousands building projects on TOP and instead of relying on your students to make microverse work, hire instructors that can assist or even teach your students as needed.

Starting in December of last year, every module in the program now has a real-world project (designed by a professional designer, with real-world specs) that students need to complete under a deadline to demonstrate mastery. One of the goals of those projects is precisely what you suggest – to help students have unique projects in their portfolio to show to employers.

We’re also gradually depending less and less on the content from TOP as we start replacing all the projects with our own. Even in that case, some of the lessons in TOP are still world-class, and we will recommend them as one of the possible learning resources. We always tell people to take into consideration the learning resources we recommend but also to find their own since that’s what they will need to do once they get a job).

peer-to-peer learning environment is great and all (it is probably the best because your bootcamp is the only bootcamp that relies on its students to teach each other), but its widely known in microverse that there is absolutely no support and guide except for links to resources freely available on the internet.

I don’t think the feeling of lack of support and guidance is a general one, but I understand how you’re feeling if you were expecting teachers.

The Net Promoter Score and the written feedback we get every week doesn’t seem to suggest that’s a feeling that many people share. I was recently looking at reviews in SwitchUp and CourseReport and found comments like the following ones:

Leonard Kanyesigye: One month into the program and all I can say is if I was in charge of the Nobel Prize or anything of that sort, I would definitely award it to the student success department for trying and giving there all to keep us motivated. Personally, I have had Willow or Lydia (You definitely have to come across them if you join) in my email inbox checking in on me more times than I can remember, and I do appreciate because I feel cared for and valued.

Yunus Emre: Additionally, I feel like Microverse is my family. They really care about you, listen to your problems, and help you to overcome them.

Azdren Ymeri: The staff, other students, and graduates are really supportive and help you overcome any problems that you might have, including personal ones.

Thaís V: What surprised me at Microverse: Their ability to confidential help and support you with any conflict resolution

I genuinely appreciate your feedback, @DAndres, and I’m again really sorry to hear your experience was not what you needed. It’s, unfortunately, impossible to build something that every single person will love. Still, we’re very proud of what we have accomplished and honestly believe it’s the best option available for people who want to start an international career, both in developing and developed countries.


#15

Hello,
I just found this topic while searching for data about a concern that came to me at the end of my video interview with Microverse. Understanding the accent of the 3-4 people speaking at the interview was easy. At least one of them was a career coach.

My concern was the following: I have studied at and also worked for some educational organizations, and I observed that some of them had issues with contents expiration. Technology related content needs to be continuously updated, and keeping it aligned with the latest versions is often challenging. How does Microverse manage this issue?
Ariel answers the question right here at TOP!
In my opinion, Microverse’s philosophy gives a good solution to a common issue using public material that is available to anyone.
It’s easy to find documents and training around; the hard part is building a proper professional profile out of it, choosing the right areas, completing the training and knowing where and how to search for your first contacts, interviews, and jobs in a field that’s new for you when you graduate.
Also, regarding the English accents point, multicultural environments are usual these days. Being trained for it can only improve the chances of keeping a good job once you get it after some effort.


#16

Hi @Maria_Antignolo,

It’s great to see you here!

You have perfectly described one of the main reasons why we curate content instead of creating new content.

First of all, there are people out there who are experts at explaining certain concepts, topics, and ideas. There is no way that we can be experts at everything. Instead, we prefer to identify the experts at each topic.

On top of that, since technology-related content changes all the time as you suggested, it’s much faster for us to change that content by quickly replacing it by another curated piece of content than having to create a new piece of content ourselves.

There are two exceptions to that:

  1. If we can’t find world-class content for a given topic. An example of that is our career prep curriculum.
  2. The projects’ requirements. We started by using many of the projects from The Odin Project, and we slowly started transitioning to creating our own content for projects because it’s core to our learning methodology (100% project-based).

Let me know if you have any other questions, Maria. I’m glad this thread is becoming useful to address some of those questions.


#17

Hi @arielcamus, What if i leave the program after 4 weeks?


#18

Hey @shababsaifi,

In that case, we will prorate the cost to the number of weeks you have spent in the program. If you have been at the program for more than 15 weeks, you will owe the full amount. In any case, you would only start paying if/when you get a job in the IT field making more than $1,000/month.

That’s what happened, for example, to Juan, one of our students from Colombia who got a remote job after 18 weeks in the program.

You can find the full answer to your question this section of our FAQ.

By the way, we recommend reaching out to admissions [at] microverse [dot] org for any questions about the program and also to read our FAQ in depth. There is a lot of great information there.


#19

Thanks @arielcamus, I am eager to join the program :grin:


#20

Locking this thread. The original question has more or less been answered: TOP isn’t affiliated with Microverse. Further questions about each respective program should be directed at respective representatives.

Cheers :).